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REBLOGGING FOR TAGS: #and Steve is never really surprised by how shitty people can be #just disappointed #very disappointed #Captain America is very disappointed (via flywithturtles)

*THOSE TAGS*

*now has many thinky thoughts about Steve Rogers and Night Watch and Young Sam Vimes*

The third gif is what keeps getting me.

He sees all these people getting on preparing to attack him, and they are all the faces of men he has worked with over the last few weeks and months, maybe years.  Men he’s trusted.  Lives he’s saved.  Comrades in arms.  His team, as much as he’s had one.

That is the look of bleakness, as someone else gets on and Steve thinks, “You?  I liked you.  I thought you were better than this.  Oh god, don’t make me do this.”

(Sometimes the person that you’d take a bullet for is behind the trigger)

But these aren’t people he’ll lie down for.  This is a fight he’ll pick his shield up after.  There’s nobody in this elevator he loves enough.

MCU!Steve is absolutely bebe!Vimes, except he’s a bebe!Vimes who actually got handed the ability to DO SOMETHING about all the shit he saw and hated as a young man, instead of having his hands tied and having nowhere to go but the bottle or the grave for thirty years.

There’s also interesting meta in reflecting on these men in the elevator, vs the Commandos, vs Sam and Nat and Maria and even Fury by the end. Way back at the beginning, Steve Rogers flatly turned down an attempt to pick him “the best men” and held firm on choosing the ones he thought were the best.

These men in the elevator? They were assigned to him. They were the “handpicked best men” he refused however long before.

But the people who actually had his back and made him able to do what he did? Another unpredictable band met by chance and chosen because he knew them and knew who and what they were.

Cap2 is really all about Steve remembering that actually he’s a stubborn unpredictable maverick force that never met an order he actually obeyed out of Basic, not a cog - even an important cog - in the big grinding machine. He’s the guy in the costume who wasn’t even supposed to be there who ran a racially integrated unit that also held two guys not even from the US Army and NONE of whom deigned to wear uniforms. He forgot that for a bit. Then he remembered.

Call me unimaginative, I had him down as Carrot. But now that I’ve read this I am all for CEvans as Sam Vimes. 

(Though, can you imagine him smashing through a wall, covered in mud and yelling “THAT IS NOT MY COW?”)

I’m not a comics girl, but I have watched some of the cartoons and THAT Cap is %100 Carrot. But the MCU takes a different shake on all the characters and MCU!Steve is, for my money, v definitely a young Vimes given agency instead of alcoholism, who got to get started on his project at 24 rather than 50.

Now see, I’m very much a Cap=Carrot type myself, but I’m open to conversion. Could you maybe say why you see him as young!Vimes instead of Carrot?

Motherfucker, I already answered this but tumblr seems to have eaten it; if it’s just being REALLY SLOW TO POST, well, sorry for two very long rambles about more or less the same thing.

But basically? Privilege, background, reactions and effects.

Carrot Ironfoundersson is the only kid of a wealthy and respected dwarven Chief Mining Engineer (aka “king”). He was lovingly raised by two healthy and wealthy parents doing exactly what he was told at all times; his Destiny then sat on his head and makes every. fucking. thing. happen in his favour. Carrot is Naturally Good. He is Naturally Charismatic and people Naturally Like Him. When he shows up, people throw themselves in front of bullets for him and - and this is important - IT’S JUST BECAUSE HE EXISTS. He’s physically massive, strong and handsome, girls fall all over him even when he’s totally oblivious, and everything he ever does works out for the best. He’s never lost a damn thing in his life; he even totally abandoned his post (and that was abandoning his post) when he thought he was going to lose Angua and even that worked out perfectly for him, getting her back, getting rid of his rival, keeping crime quiet in Ankh-Morpork and saving the day. Carrot’s the definition of privileged and blessed. He’s so privileged and blessed fucking causality's on his side.

And if he didn’t have Vimes to rein him in hard he’d’ve done some fucking awful things, and thought some fucking awful things. Let’s recall it’s not until he realizes the hot girl he wants to bone is a werewolf that Carrot stops being fundamentally opposed to the undead, yeah? Or how the whole idea that kings are a bad idea is Vimes’? Who taught him to use his power to help others? (“Vimes puts words in his head,” Angua thinks in Feet of Clay. Vimes is the moral centre of the Watch and of Ankh-Morpork; Carrot is literally just the McGuffin that lets Vimes get away with it instead of continuing to be slammed down into alcoholism and despair. Vimes even stops him from running off and being an idiot White Saviour in the complicated civil wars of Klatch. Most of Carrot’s actual morality, certainly the stuff more sophisticated than “stealing is bad”, comes from Vimes.

Whereas, let’s talk about movie!Steve. And I want to emphasize MOVIE STEVE. I neither know nor, I’ll be totally honest, care about comics Steve: like I said, the most I’ve seen is cartoons Steve and there, yeah, sure. That’s pretty Carrotish. Movie-Steve, no.

Because in MCU, Steve Rogers is the chronically ill and physically disabled (asthma without proper meds = fucking disabled) son of poor Irish immigrants back when that kind of thing still kind of mattered. He’s born to a widowed TB nurse (his father having died in the war which means having died before Steve was born) and brought up by her in a tiny apartment in Brooklyn. There’s a (very neat) bit going round about Brooklyn having been the queer neighbourhood? Yeah, back then, openly queer people didn’t have money, guys. “Queer neighbourhood” didn’t mean immaculate lawns and fake and bake tans, it meant poor-as-fuck. He was small, he was physically weak, he was chronically ill, he was dead poor and he had no dad, which also mattered, and also meant his mother would have been working a lot, in a world where simply because of what had and hadn’t been invented yet everything was harder.

Sound familiar? Because if you aren’t thinking “Shades”, or at least the outlying areas around it, you should be.

He would have had to fight for everything. He was born in 1918; that means he was 11 when the stock market crashed and since actually the poor hadn’t been very well off even during the boom that just meant his life went down. He came of age during the worst of the Depression - as a small, weak boy whose only talent was art, and an ability to pick a fight with anybody he thought was bullying someone else. He can’t really run, he can’t effectively fight, and he would still see himself as extremely, extremely lucky because they had a place to live, and they had food, and they weren’t freezing come winter. When his mom died when he was 18, the fact that his lifelong best friend offers to let him sleep on his floor for nothing is a big deal, something Steve is almost too proud to accept.

Steve gets exactly two things Vimes never got: Bucky, and Erskine. James Buchanan Barnes means he grew up with a lifetime iron-clad insanely loyal friendship, and one wherein frankly Bucky was the one continually doing for Steve what Steve wanted to be able to do for everyone else (like walk in, give the bully a black eye and a kick in the pants and run him off). Which is a big deal. And then Erskine, who gives him his shot at the Army which, up till then, kept rejecting him over and over again (he was committing indictable offenses by falsifying that paperwork, y’know?) - and Steve still worked for that, he sweated for that, half their size and half their weight and probably less than half their oxygen capacity he kept within a few feet or a lap or two of all the other candidates.

Even the serum didn’t actually give him the chance he wanted: he spent three years as a propaganda piece selling bonds and kissing babies that cried at him, before he got to the front, found out Bucky was probably dead and the rest of the 107th captured, went “FUCK y’all” and began his exemplary career of ignoring any order he didn’t feel like following at the time.

And charisma? Please. His date doesn’t want him there. When he first shows up to the remnant of the 107th, they boo him, they moon him, they throw garbage at him, they don’t want to even fucking SEE this stupid civillian fuck in his tights coming here and feeding them the sugared-shit the people back home believe. Phillips doesn’t want him, the 107th doesn’t want him, nobody actually wants anything to do with him.

You know when they do? When they decide he’s awesome and alright? After he parachutes into enemy territory under fire, fights his way to the HYDRA factory, fights his way INTO the HYDRA factory, lets everyone out, goes after someone who’d been taken to the “isolation ward” (from which, as Monty says, none return) and then gets that guy and himself out of an EXPLODING FUCKING BUILDING and then gets them back to camp, fighting right at the front of it the whole damn way.

People don’t follow Steve, or look up to Steve, or react to Steve, because of some ill-defined charisma. They follow Steve because when your back’s against the wall, he’s right behind you (and that’s a quote about Vimes, from The Fifth Elephant). They follow Steve because when Steve’s asking you to risk your life to fight HYDRA, he’s also dragging his ass up the parapet in spite of three gunshot wounds, one of them in the gut, and a knife in his shoulder, and who knows what else, and then he orders the strike to save other people knowing it’s going to kill him - and then tries to save the guy who shot him and stabbed him.

That ain’t Carrot Ironfoundderson. That’s Mister Sam Vimes. Now because Sam Vimes had to way through thirty years of misery with only the bottle for company until a dragon showed up to give him his chance, instead of it being offered by coincidence at 22, Vimes is superficially nastier and his phrase-choices are more cynical, but that’s surface: he’s still willing to die and kill and lose everything he has because he just realized that goblins are people and he’s been ignoring atrocities all his life but he can stop that RIGHT NOW. Steve would be the same.

And that’s the Steve up there, unsurprised but still saddened that it turns out these people he’s fought and bled with are turning on him and turning on him for the sake of bad shit. That ain’t Carrot. That’s Vimes. Just younger, and with more weapons at hand.

@fizzygingr Discworld meta!

You know what this discussion is missing? “The Beast,” and one of the big differences between Steve and (current) Sam.

The entire arc of Winter Soldier is about Steve defying orders and rules and expectations and bringing down a corrupt system, catastrophically, from the outside. Like an earlier comment said, he’s remembering that he’s not a perfectly obedient soldier, and his real power lies in his ability to work beyond what he’s given. It’s something mirrored in a ton of characters throughout the movie- Black Widow has been following orders without question because she was confident that her bosses were on the good guys’ side, the titular Winter Soldier is flat-out brainwashed, even Falcon’s joke about why he’s glad to be out of the army is “the number of people giving me orders has dropped to about… zero?” Both movies are about Steve choosing to defy orders and go off the script he’s been given and letting himself get farther outside the system the rest of the world wants to impose on him (also that you can’t die by falling).

Which is simultaneously exactly what Sam Vimes does every single book and exactly the narrative Sam Vimes is in a constant struggle to avoid.

Because on the Disc, stories are alive and they can drive you and move you and make you into something more, but once one catches you it can be hard to get away, because it’s intoxicating and once you’re in too far it can be hard to find yourself amid all the stories (and this sentence just summarized most of the plot of Witches Abroad). And that’s part of where Vimes’ Beast is- it lives in the story of the Cowboy Cop, the vigilante who abandons the system and plays by his own rules and takes out his anger at those who break the law by breaking the law himself. That narrative has its claws in him, which is why the Summoning Dark likes him so much- it’s a spirit of pure vengeance, and it recognizes that, and uses it (see, again, “THAT! IS! NOT! MY! COW!”).

And that’s why the Guarding Dark exists, and why he always, always sticks by the book, why he arrests people he’d have no remorse about killing and people he knows will get off scot-free, and why when he kills Wolfgang in The Fifth Elephant he refuses to gloat or celebrate, because he has to remember that he did it because it needed done, not because he wanted to. Because he knows that if he slipped up, the story will catch him and the Beast will take over and he’ll stop being anything like who he wants to be. Sam Vimes is perpetually teetering on a tightrope over a howling abyss of rage and hate, and he has to place his steps very carefully to avoid falling off.

Which, obviously, is not something we see with Steve. Both of them are firmly Lawful Good, but where Sam Vimes has to fight tooth and nail to stay that way, Steve Rogers just is.

And yeah, to some people that probably makes Steve sound more like Carrot than like Vimes, but I don’t think that’s right, even beyond the reasons given above about background.

Because what I think it actually means is that Steve Rogers has just as much sheer bloody-minded willpower and refusal to give into darkness as Sam Vimes, but without the decades of marinating in frustration and alcohol, there’s virtually no darkness in him to give into in the first place.

Somebody should introduce them.

Vimes would think Steve was a twerp.

HOLY FUCK BEAUTIFUL DISCWORLD META WITH CAPTAIN AMERICA META OMG THESE TWO THINGS ARE COMING TOGETHER LIKE PEANUT BUTTER AND CHOCOLATE AND I CANT EVEN

"Vimes would think Steve was a twerp."

DEAR COMBINED MCU/DISCWORLD FANDOM: I FUCKING LOVE YOU.

potofsoup:

archeralli:

a weak and tortured bucky making sure steve gets to safety first

It’s because Bucky has a habit of letting Steve go first.

——-

1) Always let Steve go first up the stairs, so that you can keep an eye on him.  It’s easier to count Steve’s breaths and notice when Steve’s heart does that thing that makes him stop and shake.  Much easier to stop and pretend to tie your shoes while you wait, worried, than to realize 2 flights too late that Steve’s no longer with you. 

Later: Your limbs are sore and numb from being strapped to a table for 2 days and you’re pretty sure you haven’t eaten and the entire base might be exploding, but when Steve says “let’s go up,” you tell him to go first.

———-

2) Steve’s walk was mostly normal, though he swung his hips in a certain way to compensate for his scoliosis, and that put a special cadence to his stride that you unconsciously match. Even without Steve around you would twist your hip back before swinging your leg forward.  Twist, swing, twist, swing.

Later: Steve is leading the way through the forest, and you’re finally used to his height and broad shoulders and that dumb shield, but something still feels wrong.  Somehow your pace doesn’t quite match, and you can’t figure out why.

———-

3) Colors don’t work the same with Steve, so always describe unfamiliar objects by their shape and relative location, like that square window past the third door on the left, or the man wearing that unseasonably long coat standing in the corner by the garbage can.

Later: The boys are singing in the other room and you’re at the bar with Steve, trying very hard to get drunk because of course you’ll follow Steve into whatever but that doesn’t mean you have to do it sober.  “Steve,” you whisper, “Check out that lady by the door, next to that short thin guy who has his shirt open.”  Steve looks over.  “The one in the red dress?  That’s Miss Carter.”  You decide you need another drink.

———-

4) When walking down a narrow dark alleyway always stay on the right, because Steve’s bad ear makes the right side feel blind to him (though damn if Steve’d ever admit that).  On broad open streets, switch to Steve’s left side, so that Steve could hear you better through the noise.

Later: Dum-Dum gives you a weird look as you line up to charge into a Hydra base.  “Why won’t you take the left flank for a change?”  You start explaining Steve’s bad ear before you remember that he’s not that Steve any more, and that Captain America doesn’t have a bad ear.

———-

5) Stuff in your left pockets are for Steve: the asthma cigarettes that Steve could never afford, a dime for that popcorn that Steve likes, tickets for whatever shindig you’re trying to drag Steve along to. Sometimes you put things there for Steve and totally forget about it, like extra paper and a spare pencil in case Steve wants to doodle.  The left side always belongs to Steve.

Later: Steve is awfully quiet by the campfire.  You sit down by his good ear and reach into your left pocket.  “Hey,” you say, pulling out a news clipping about the war front that featured a lovely photo of Miss Carter.  “You read this yet?  They think Morita’s a Japanese defector, but the section on Dernier is priceless.”

———————-

Still later:

Report on the Winter Soldier reset procedures

After the latest test run, only the following anomalies remain:

A) The asset tends to hug the right walls and not the left, and hesitates for 30 microseconds before climbing stairs.  However, he does not hesitate when scaling walls or ladders.

B) When walking unopposed the asset has a characteristic and identifiable stride, which is dropped when he is making a covered approach.  

C) The asset communicates via relative locations, often omitting crucial color information.  However, he can be commanded to describe the colors of any object in impressive detail.

D) When dressing himself, the asset keeps his knives exclusively on his right side, and his left pockets are underutilized.  This may be an effect of continued unfamiliarity with the new left arm.

After extensive field testing, we have determined that these anomalies do not impede the asset from completing his missions, and declare the reset process complete.

—————————

[basically the textual partner to the colorblindness comic]

[The rest of my Captain America stuff]

thewinterfrostgiant:

the moment you realize that refusing to fight bucky was steve’s first time backing out of a fight

image

affectingly:

tygermama:

last-snowfall:

tygermama:

nonasuch:

star-anise:

tygermama:

I just want all the descendants of the Howling Commandos to be this big, extended, up-in-each-others-business family

and they aren’t all in SHIELD but they all have a rough idea of what’s going on and if one of them shows up in the middle of the night, they’re guaranteed a safe place to sleep, a meal and a scolding

'You better live through this. If you die, your mom'll call my mom and there'll be hell to pay'

I want them to have big “family reunions” every five years where everybody—fuckin’ EVERYBODY—makes it out to some campground or something where they all hang out and have a softball tournament and cut up a sheet cake so big it feeds two hundred people.  That’s when you meet peoples’ new SOs and pass around babies and congratulate kids on their new jobs.

oh god, and if they had the first one five years after the war ended, they’re due for one in 2015, and it’s the first one Steve gets to attend, and he gets there and it’s basically the best/worst experience of his entire life to date, because there are all these people who walk like Jim and grin like Dugan and say their vowels like Falsworth, and they all want to tell him stories about Dad, about Granddad, about Great-Granddad, they want to hear his stories from the war, they want to invite him to college graduations and weddings and christenings, and when he starts to get a little overwhelmed by all of it one of Gabe’s daughters pulls him aside on some pretense and gives him ten minutes to pull himself back together before she gets his email for the howlingfamilies listserv, which she runs.

(oh god, and two hours into it he catches a pack of Dernier kids arguing in rapid French over whether they should tell their parents about the man up a tree at the far edge of the campground that they saw while they were playing hide-and-seek, and Steve walks into the woods with his heart in his throat, and the tree’s empty now but he hears a twig crack behind him, deliberate, because Bucky knows how to walk quieter than that, and when he turns around Bucky looks— well, a hell of a lot better than he did a year ago, a hell of a lot more like himself, even with the shadows still around his eyes and the smile almost wavering at the edges of his mouth.)

 HOWLING COMMANDOSomg the idea of them being like a network or a reseau like thatis just perfect,they’re not all in shield but they have lots of ressources,they might not be agentsbut they’re not exactly civilians eithersome of them are perfectly ordinary office workers who know exactly what kind of spy business shit is going on behind the latest alien attackperfectly ordinary desk workers who know how to shoot like peggyand they’re a group of determined and kickass peopleall super protective of one anotherand they know what a legacy meansand they’re basically a big familyjim’s granddaughter is arguing with dum dum’s daughter’s cousin’s son like they’re siblingspeople are speaking and yelling at each other in at least three different languages at any given timemcui want this so badi want cap to discover them and then they all take care of him and make him feel like he’s family and they all look out for him in their own little waysand ahhh.

and the people who get bussed out to cities they’ve never been to before because they can’t afford medical or dental care but the network has doctors and will get you there

and how it’s slightly cheaper for them to go to college pretty much anywhere because there’s family in the area they can live with

and how if you go off the rails and start getting in to deep there are people who will come find you and drag you home

Every once in a while some kid is like OMG I LOVE YOU ALL BUT I AM RUNNING AWAY TO AFRICA BECAUSE GAH. (Or possibly even I HATE YOU ALL AND I’M RUNNING AWAY TO ICELAND.) (Once in a while I AM RUNNING AWAY TO KOREA AND IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU AT ALL.) And this is okay. I mean, it’s very sad. But it’s okay. … but they still get care-packages, and someone who works in international diplomacy is tasked to just keep a GENERAL eye on them and make sure they’ve got, you know, money and food. (A roof over their head is variable. I mean, maybe they like bush-living. That’s fine. But money and food, that’s necessary.)

and Natasha’s first mission as a SHIELD agent is to fish this kid out of a serious situation in South America and she has no idea why cause this kid is a no-body and the trouble he’s in is in no way something SHIELD should give a shit about but Fury muttered something about ‘family is family’ and ‘never gonna get any dumplings again’

so Natasha does the job and now there’s a restaurant in the Bronx that always gives her free food and she’s not entirely sure why

but it is great food

WHEN THEY MEET SAM WILSON AND THEY JUST HUG HIM BECAUSE HE GAVE STEVE A SAFE PLACE TO GO WHEN THEY COULDN’T

voodooling:

The gang is playing Cards Against Humanity and Bucky’s got something to reveal.. ;]

Inspired by this post


mishastolethetardis - Imagine the Avengers going to the movies and Natasha tries to get Steve in as a senior

mishastolethetardis - Imagine the Avengers going to the movies and Natasha tries to get Steve in as a senior

septembriseur:

I am so here for CA:TWS stories that examine the fact that Sam is at a different point in his life than Steve is, that even though we get to see Sam as a goofy, exuberant flyboy, he’s also someone who has crossed a river that Steve has only come to the bank of: stepping outside of his soldierness and confronting how to live in the world with what he’s lost and what he’s done. The scene at the VA suggests that Steve comes to him in search of a guide as well as a friend. Sure, Steve’s seen and done things that Sam can’t imagine, but Sam has also done one important thing that Steve is only starting to imagine, which is making peace with himself as a soldier and a human being. 

It’s pretty interesting that Sam is essentially a happy character, generous and trusting, and that he has no problems going back into battle, bringing the battle to his home. We know that he’s suffered a lot, enough to make him lose all sense of purpose. But when we see him, he’s not suffering. Unlike most of the MCU heroes at this point, he’s not in the thick of warring with his trauma. And while there are a lot of pointed questions you can ask about the politics of his character, I think it’s important that he’s there in the film to show that there is a peace to make with trauma. That it’s possible to suffer, and not suffer for the rest of your life; that it is actually possible to come out the other side of grief.

But also: that it’s not some magical transformation, that it doesn’t happen through love or by chance. I feel like we get a really clear sense of a Sam who has worked incredibly hard to be the person he is. We see him leading a recovery group! It’s like: Yeah. He’s been through this. And it’s like the opposite of grimdarkness, because what it’s putting up there on the screen is the idea that trauma is real, and major, and crippling, and it’s not going to just go away— but you can live through it, live with it, and learn to be a happy human being.

And that’s one of the reasons Sam is awesome. And there should be more stories about that.

“I think that a huge problem is people who read comics and don’t understand the point of superheroes, which is to be the best version of yourself. You love Captain America? Well, you know what Captain America would never do? Go online anonymously and shit on a girl for having an opinion.”

Wearing a brightly coloured jumpsuit with a great big target on your torso probably doesn’t seem very practical from an urban camouflage point of view, but for Steve Rogers, it’s perfect. Why is he wearing the old costume? So people will know that he’s Captain America. He’s trusting that people will see him and rally around him, because that’s the whole point of Cap.

That Cap/Falcon conversation (“How do we know which ones are the bad guys?” “They’ll be the ones shooting at us.”) isn’t just a snappy one-liner, it’s a tactical decision. In a war where no one is wearing a uniform and anyone could be the enemy, Steve is consciously choosing to represent one side instead of sneaking into SHIELD headquarters in disguise. So not only will he be able to tell who the bad guys are because they’re shooting at him, everyone else will be able to tell as well. Loyal SHIELD agents will know that if you’re shooting at the dude in the red, white and blue superhero costume, then you’re the enemy.

There’s also the possibility that the vintage Captain America costume helps Bucky regain his memory for long enough to stop murdering Steve in the face. Steve’s 21st century hair, clothes and uniform would all render him well-nigh unrecogniseable to Bucky’s distant memories of their life together, which are almost entirely subsumed by the Winter Soldier’s conditioning. Cap’s old wartime costume is the only thing that stands a chance of seeming familiar.

Costume and design in Captain America: The Winter Soldier.

the-listening:

kingdom-dance:

Just a reminder of the cruel irony that everyone remembered Steve Rogers except for the two people he loved the most.

image

timeformoriar-tea:

padfoot-padewan:

jibblyuniverse:

Fighting Nazis Serious

PATRIOTIC BONER

I’D HIT THAT LIKE A FUCKING TARGET

katinca:

this is part 3, I suppose!! (and here are part 1 and part 2)

whaaaat omg

Everything Wrong With Captain America: The First Avenger (by CinemaSins)

What a waste of Natalie Dormer, indeed.